Transcript of Interview with Christopher Ochoa
University of Wisconsin Law School - Madison, Wisconsin
March 3, 2001
Dave : The restaurant where Nancy actually worked
was…
Chris: On __________ Street.
Dave: Had you ever had an opportunity to meet her before?
Chris: I’d seen her at management meetings, but I never talked
to her.
Dave: So she would have been a manager?
Chris: Yeah, she was a manager.
Dave: And, the relationship then between you and she was you basically
worked at the same company…
Chris: There was no relationship at all.
Dave: So it was just at a manager’s meeting…
Chris: Yeah, I’d seen her once or twice.
Dave: OK. How long had she worked for Pizza Hut?
Chris: You’re asking the wrong person.
Dave: When did you first hear about the incident where she had been
murdered?
Chris: It was on the news. They didn’t mention any names, but
later on that night they mentioned it.
Dave: So they identified at least the location.
Chris: Yeah, that same night.
Dave: Now, had there been any communication from anybody at Pizza Hut
about the incident in terms of what had actually happened, the details
surrounding it, anything like that?
Chris: Hmm, there was rumors going around, but I really don’t
know, don’t recall.
Dave: OK, so nobody came and said “here’s exactly what happened.”
Chris: Oh, no.
Dave: When were you then first contacted by the police?
Chris: It was November 11 at 2:00 p.m.
John Pray: It was the 9th. The 9th is when you went into the Pizza Hut,
it was the 11th….(garbled)
Chris: I believed it was the….it might have been the 9th.
John: No, that’s the night you went into Pizza Hut, I think. On
the 11th the police came.
Dave: How is it that they come to see you on the 11th or approximately
the 11th?
Chris: Uh, (garbled). Richard ______ was driving me home, taking me
home. He was driving his car and he wanted to stop by the Pizza Hut…it
was after it all happened. And he was curious about going in there,
and I didn’t want to…I was tired, told him I want to go
home. He insisted, plus he was driving, we went out there, over at,
outside the car for a while, over at the parking lot, and I told him
I don’t want to go in, I was tired. He still insisted, so we went
in and he wanted to order a beer and I didn’t want to, it’s
against policy, it’s how I am basically, I try to (garbled), but
he insisted and I ended up, we did anyway, and he toasted to the memory
of Nancy Caprice right in the restaurant. And then we went outside and
he was asking questions, asking the security guard questions, and uh
I guess that raised their suspicions or whatever. Because I think before,
and I didn’t know this, cause I read the transcripts, that the
guy who murders may come back on these things, so when they saw that,
they got suspicious so they called the cops (garbled). And a couple
days later they come, sergeant, or one of the first officers, he came
to the Pizza Hut, and he asked me if I minded coming down to the station
and answering questions, and I said sure why not. (garbled)
Dave: So…
Chris: I said sure, I asked him if I could take my car down there, and
he said “you can take your car or we can drive you.” He
says “It’s gonna be a couple of minutes or an hour, and
we can drive you back.” So I said “Sure I’ll go down
with you.”
Dave: And what time is this about now?
Chris: 10:30, 11:00, I don’t remember.
Dave: Evening or morning.
Chris: Morning. So I go down to the station, and I was so…I’d
never been in custody, I don’t know, I was straight basically.
And he had mentioned questions about a burglary, and I know the difference
between a burglary and a robbery, and I knew that this murder and whatever,
and I assumed that they were asking questions, asking was this about
the robbery. And he said “No, it’s about another burglary,”
and I wrote it off at that, he puts me in this cubicle or office, whatever,
and he asks me some questions about a burglary that happened at north
__________, earlier in the month, couple of months earlier. He didn’t
ask me any questions about that. About 10 minutes later, I think it
was about 10 minutes, I’m not too sure about the time, he gets
up and he comes back after a while and he said “Would you mind
stepping into this room.” She follows him, he takes me and I follow
him. It was, what I know now it was an interrogation, but I didn’t
know that at the time. Uh, he starts asking me questions then, sits
down and said “Why were you asking about the robbery?” I
said “I was just curious.” and he said “I see you’re
upset, so you must know something about it. Nobody’s just curious.”
I said “no, I’m just wondering.” He said “No
you must know something about it.” I say “No I don’t.”
he said “Are you sure nobody asked you, nobody told you, you didn’t
hear anybody talking about it?” and so forth, and he walks out.
In comes another detective, a Hispanic detective. He walks in and looks
at me, and I guess he was pretty friendly at first, but he came in and
he introduced himself, “I’m sergeant ________.” He
said (in Spanish), “They call me the bogeyman on the streets.”,
that’s what it translates to. I don’t know maybe, he may
have said before “Do you know who I am?” But I do remember
those words (Spanish)…they call me the bogeyman. He starts asking
questions and I tell him “I don’t know what you’re
talking about.” He said “Well, nobody’s just curious,
somebody must have told you.” You got to understand it’s
been 12 years ago, so a lot of the things that I can’t, there
are some things that may stand out. This went on over a period of hours,
this interrogation, and at one point he would leave and another sergeant,
detective, came into the room, playing the good cop role. He said “Look,
this guy’s ready to charge you” with stuff like that, I
don’t know exactly, but Sergeant ________ he comes back in and
says “You know, I just looked at your record, I know you have
a ______ record. You’re not the type of person that would do this
crime, so if you know something about it, let us know, ‘cause
if you do know something about it and you don’t say anything,
we could charge you.” I said “How can you charge me?”
He said “It doesn’t matter, we can charge you.” I
tell him I don’t know. So this goes on through a period of hours
and he’s yelling and screaming, all this time pounding his fist
on the table and getting in my face and yelling. And this guy’s
a pretty big guy and all this going on, I’d never been in this
situation. And this is a heinous crime. So he leaves, and at one point
this Hispanic detective comes in, female, and I ask her if I could get
an attorney, and she said “Not until you’re officially charged.”
And I didn’t know at the time if she was right or not. And she
leaves, he comes back again. I dealt with Blanco most of the time (garbled).
He talks to me, yelling at me. He said “Look, if somebody told
you, just give us a statement and you’ll go home.” I think
it was 6 or 7 hours. “If somebody told you, get it over with.”
I tell him “I don’t know what you’re talking about.”
He starts yelling and screaming, he leaves, they go outside, they come
back He said “You know the DA is ready to charge.” I don’t
know at what point that is, but I know he said that, I don’t know
what point. When he comes in and he shows me a picture of death row,
a cell. He tells me “This is where you’ll live the rest
of your life.” (garbled) Kind of shook me up a little bit, but
I still tell him “I don’t know what you’re talking
about.” And he leaves, and he comes back and (garbled), at one
of these points the DA’s outside ready to charge me with capital
murder. He said “You talk to me right now, you tell me who it
was somebody told you, whatever you know, and I will ____________.”
I found out that was a lie. He leaves, he comes back and he brings a
picture of the autopsy of the victim where the bullet wound was. He
said “Don’t you feel sorry for her, don’t you want
to help her?” I said “I do, but I don’t know what
you’re talking about.” He left and then at one point he
told me that my co-defendant was in the next room ready to talk, ready
to implicate me. I said “I don’t know what you’re
talking about.” Of course, that was a lie too (garbled). But he
came and at one point he said “You know the white guy always gets
the deal and the Hispanic always gets the rap. I don’t want you
to take the rap. Why don’t you just talk now?” (garbled)
So he comes back and he yells at me, coming in and out, saying the same
thing, the DA’s ready to charge me. At one point he comes in and
he’s hollering and screaming and he says “Look, I’m
getting sick and tired of your BS.”, not his exact words but to
the effect. He said “Look, I’m gonna charge you, I’m
gonna put you in a jail cell,” where he said something to the
effect of “You’ll be fresh meat, you’ve never been
in trouble before.” And to me this shook me up a little bit ‘cause
I thought, they gonna rape me, they gonna put me in a cell. And he leaves
and at this point I’m tired, been there a long time.
Dave: How long had you been there by this point?
Chris: Oh, God, I must have been in there about 12 hours, 11, 10-1/2,
and at this point I say….you know who talked to you…told
them about a black man that I heard, they never even wrote that statement
down. I was just saying whatever they wanted, whatever, just to go home.
Then they asked me about Nancy and then they tell me about her, you
know about, and I didn’t know at the time that I was even a suspect,
and I was at all times a suspect (garbled). Anyway, he tells me, do
you think Danziger was involved, but anyway he starts taking a statement
and then that’s when he wanted me to implicate Danziger, and I
didn’t say in those words. I would say something, Danziger said
he did it, did he come home, did he tell you this and I would just agree
with it and he would type it.
Dave: Now how long had you been with them at this point?
Chris: With Blanco? When I signed the statement?
Dave: Yeah, to the point when the interrogation began until…
Chris: Oh, it was about 10-1/2 hours.
Dave: OK, so this is at the latter part?
Chris: The latter part, yeah. And so that’s how we…I don’t
know, I don’t recall, it’s kind of difficult for me to recall
everything, but that’s how he would ask his questions, asked “Did
he do this, did he do this?” Sometimes he’d give me two
or three and whenever I would guess it right then he would type it.
Matter of fact, Gordon was also typing. _____ was there. They did read
me my rights right before the statement, that was way into the interrogation.
So when I did that, they told me to sign the statement and I signed
it. And then they asked me if I would give a semen sample and blood
sample, they said to make sure you weren’t part of it. And I said
sure, I would be more than happy to. And we did and I thought I was
gonna go home at that point, and I said can I go home, and he said “No
we’re going to put you up at a Holiday Inn ‘cause we think
Danziger might get to you.” And I was OK. At this point I don’t
know if I’m free to go or not, but I know they told me to stay
in the Holiday Inn, don’t call anybody. So the whole time I’m
at the Holiday Inn, I’m new to all this thing, I didn’t
know that I could have left, but I stayed there ‘cause I trust
cops, I trust the officers, I was brought up to trust police offers.
So I’m there and eventually I say maybe I should have called my
roommate, and I call him up and say I wanted an attorney. And I don’t
know what happened after, did he call or I don’t know what happened,
but I do know that on Monday, cause this happened on a Friday, the interrogation,
and they kept me for a weekend, Saturday and Sunday. But I know they
were upset, wanted to know why I’m in there. Now we know (garbled)
another robbery interrogation on Monday. This time was Blanco and ___________.
Dave: OK, so there’s two separate interrogations then. The first
one occurs on Friday, to kind of summarize to make sure I’ve got
it correct. Now they pick you up 10:30, 11:00 in the morning.
Chris: Something like that, yeah.
Dave: Beginning interview relating to a burglary.
Chris: That’s what they said.
Dave: And then it switches over to the murder of Nancy.
Chris: Yes.
Dave: Now, what kind of questions, did they show you all the autopsy
photos?
Chris: No, just one or two.
Dave: How else did you know about what had happened at the crime scene?
Chris: He would ask me “Did this happen, did that happen, was
it this color of a certain item, wasn’t this here, that’s
how he ….”
Dave: OK, so that’s how that statement was taken.
Chris: Yeah, he was just giving me leading questions like this.
Dave: And what would happen if you said the incorrect thing?
Chris: Well, you know they Monday they took two statements, one on tape,
he wanted me to be an accomplice, and he went through it all and then
once he was satisfied, then I just repeated what had done on tape. Then
he wasn’t satisfied with that, then he wanted me to (garbled)
and when he started taking that that’s how he would ask me if
I wasn’t answering the way I was supposed to, he would stop the
tape and start it and then there was a lot of stopping ‘cause
I was stuttering a lot and it started and stop and started and stopped.
At that point, one of the officers got very frustrated, he threw the
chair at me, he threw it at my head and it hit the wall, just missed
my head, and this guy’s a pretty big guy, I mean these guys are
big, I was really small at the time. He caught it right before it fell
to my head and that’s when Hector Blanco said “Well, here
let’s just type it and we’ll help you out.” And that’s
exactly how, and he typed it and I have never to this day read the statements.
I signed it, he brought witnesses to sign it, and I was terrified, when
he threw the chair, I thought these guys were gonna hurt me bad. But
this was terrifying for me, he was giving me a choice, death or…
Dave: So basically at this point, had you implicated Richard?
Chris: Yeah, he made sure I implicated Richard.
Dave: What did you tell him that Richard had done?
Chris: He wanted me…He asked “Did Richard pull the trigger”,
Richard did this, and he would type it. Richard told you he did this
and he did that, whatever, and at this point I just wanted to get it
over with. He kept on saying “We’ll give you, you’ll
do your time and go home ‘cause if you don’t, you’re
gonna get the death penalty, you’ll die for something you didn’t
do. Do you want to die for something you didn’t do? I don’t
want you to die for something you didn’t do”, stuff like
that.
Dave: So, is Richard there at this point?
Chris: I don’t know where he was at.
Dave: So he wasn’t brought in at the same time you were then.
Chris: I have no idea.
Dave: So on Monday when they bring you back, how long does that interrogation
last?
Chris: I don’t recall.
Dave: What time did they pick you up, do you remember approximately,
was it about 8:00?
Chris: I don’t know, I don’t recall, but it was early.
Dave: Now had you had any food or anything at this point?
Chris: They would bring me hamburgers and stuff.
Dave: So there’s how many interrogators.
Chris: (garbled) He was the majority, he was with me, but after Monday
I didn’t see him. Well, I would see him, but interviewing.
Dave: So when they sent you to the Holiday Inn, were they with you?
Chris: They took me, but they just took me and said order room service
(garbled).
Dave: OK, so they didn’t assign somebody to stay with you at that
point.
Chris: No, they didn’t.
Dave: So what was your understanding at that point?
Chris: My understanding was that I could not leave ‘cause I trusted
the officers. (garbled). Of course in hindsight (garbled).
Dave: So if you were gonna describe kind of the change of emotions that
you had, let’s start with Friday. You first come in, what are
you feeling at that point?
Chris: Well, kind of like why, not that concerned, then it gets interrogational,
but then when they brought up the murder, and when Blanco started getting
in my face, my heart went. Here’s this woman that died a horrible
death, my worst nightmare come true. I didn’t know what could
happen, my emotions were so, it’s very hard to describe, very
difficult. (garbled) When he threatened to put me in a cell, it terrified
me. (garbled) I had never been in that situation before. I had always
trusted officers. (garbled)
Dave: Did he tell you that he had evidence?
Chris: I don’t recall if he did or not. All he was concerned was
for me to tell him what he wanted, and hey I just wanted to go home.
I was very tired, all I thought was let me go home, I want to go home.
Looking back on it, that was the most exhausting day of my whole life.
Dave: I think probably the biggest question that everybody has, that
they don’t understand is why would you say that you were involved
if you weren’t.
Chris: The situation is here, I used to talk to a lot of convicts in
prison and some went over to Viet Nam and they were very gung ho and
what they were going to do when they got into combat. Some of these
same guys talking about I’m gonna do this in this situation, as
soon as the bullets start firing they wouldn’t fight and they
run. That’s very easy to say I wouldn’t do this in a situation
but when you get into the situation it’s a whole different ballgame.
The man is threatening my life, I know that he’s trying to murder
me, so the natural instinct to survive sometimes, everybody has to survive.
It’s like somebody putting a revolver to your head, you don’t
know, you just say whatever the hell comes into your mind. (garbled)
How would I know, I’ve never been in that situation, I don’t
know that he doesn’t have the power to charge me, I know it lies
in the DA’s hands, so what do I do? And that’s the best
way I can explain it, but other people will say that, but until you’ve
been in that situation, I don’t care how much people say. Maybe
somebody else, I mean ask me now and I know, but you know I was always
taught to trust officers.
Dave: Did you think to ask for a lawyer?
Chris: I did, I asked that lady, I asked for an attorney and she said
no, not until you’re charged. Struck me as kind of strange. Matter
of fact, I wasn’t even there that long before I asked for an attorney.
Dave: How did they position themselves, one in the room, two in the
room?
Chris: Sometimes there’d be two in the room, but Blanco was always
there.
Dave: Was there a table between you?
Chris: I think there was a table.
Dave: Now when you say that he’s yelling and screaming at you,
from a seated position?
Chris: No, he’d get up and get in my face (garbled)
Dave: Talk again briefly about the pictures he showed you. He showed
you autopsy pictures and then pictures of death row? What’s the
autopsy photo, what impact did that have?
Chris: Shocked, can’t explain the emotion. The one that impacted
me was the one of the death row cell.
Dave: So what’s your emotion then?
Chris: Scared our of my mind, terrified, what the hell is going on,
terrified, and when they told me I couldn’t have an attorney,
I thought what the hell’s going on. Very difficult to put into
words, but sometimes I see him in the night, I don’t know if I’ll
ever get over it. Maybe I didn’t go to Viet Nam, but maybe that’s
my Viet Nam.
Dave: Now I want to go back to the tape, the making of the statements
again. This is now Monday, you’ve spent the weekend at the Holiday
Inn. And you basically only made one phone call. I forget who you said
you talked to.
Chris: My other roommate was Roger _________, that’s who I called.
Dave: And what did that conversation entail?
Chris: I don’t know if I went into detail about what was happening.
Dave: So then you come back in on Monday, and how is Monday different
from Friday?
Chris: That I have two officers in the room, whereas Friday just one,
I have two, and whereas Friday Sergeant ________ was what I know now
was the good cop, whereas Monday he gets upset and throws a chair. Now
I feel I’ve got two of them coming at me, not only that guy but
this guy.
Dave: So the one that was the good cop…
Chris: Yeah, now he throws a chair at me.
Dave: So he’s changed roles.
Chris: Now I’ve got two of them that could hurt me in there, so
that was how it changed.
Dave: But did they ever physically do anything to you?
Chris: They threw the chair at me.
Dave: So there wasn’t any physical abuse, striking you…
Chris: No, it was more mental.
Dave: About how long are you there on Monday before you start to take
the first statement?
Chris: I can’t recall.
Dave: Long time, short time, any sense?
Chris: Medium time, some time between short and long. At this time I
don’t have a sense of time (garbled).
Dave: Did they move you to a different room to take this statement?
Chris: It was a different room for the two interrogations.
Dave: So what did the room look like?
Chris: Monday?
Dave: Yeah.
Chris: Well, it was smaller I believe, more compact.
Dave: And then they moved you when they were ready to take the statement?
Chris: Oh, no they took it right in that same room.
Dave: So did they bring a typewriter in?
Chris: Yeah, they brought a typewriter in.
Dave: How did they take this statement again, was it a question and
answer kind of a thing, or did it wind up being a narrative statement?
Chris: They would ask me questions, “Was this object this color?”,
and I would say no, but I was trying to take a stab and I’d say
it was this color, and he’d say, “No, it was this color.”
Or could it have been this color, and I’d say yeah. That’s
how through the whole statement we went through. It was actually his
statement, not mine.
Dave: So then when that statement is finished, they witness it at that
point?
Chris: Yes, they brought the witnesses afterwards.
Dave: Who are they, do you know?
Chris: Just some people.
Dave: At that point, do they read the statement out loud to you, do
you read the statement? Tell me exactly how they went about it.
Chris: No, as soon as I signed the statement (garbled). I know I didn’t
read it.
Dave: So then the next thing that happens is a audio or an audiovisual
statement. Is there a camera as well or just a tape recorded statement?
Chris: No, the tape recorded statement was before. But that was just
when he wanted me to say he had went through the statement. He’d
say well, we went through this, this and that he wanted to tape record,
where he wanted me to, then he goes scratch that, he now wants me to
take part in the crime, so now he’s asking me questions on tape
and I don’t know what the hell he’s talking about, I don’t
know no details, so he gets up and he starts and stops and gets frustrated
and throws the chair. That’s why with the tape they don’t
even use it, they go to the typewriter.
Dave: OK, so the chair incident is actually part of the taking of this
statement, they’re turning the tape player off and on. Can you
remember any specific questions that were asked and your responses to
kind of give a sense of what was going on at that point?
Chris: No, I honestly can’t. That’s not my statement, I
don’t recall. (garbled)
Dave: So that was the same thing that was happening on the audio tape
as well.
Chris: On the audio tape, yeah I was stuttering, it was start, stop,
start, stop. When I would reply and they didn’t like the story,
they would stop it and reverse it and start it again.
Dave: There never was a video tape, just an audio tape.
Chris: Just an audio tape.
Dave: Is that still in existence?
Chris: I don’t think so, they destroyed it.
Dave: So your participation in this is not as the killer then.
Chris: No, as the rapist. Later on, right, I think they took me to meet
the DA, months later, to take a polygraph. Then the DA says “I
want you to be a trigger man.”
Dave: So now you’ve gone from being a lookout to being inside
to months later to being the trigger man.
Chris: Yes.
Dave: How does that happen? Do you have a sense of how that occurred?
Chris: No.
Dave: Are you represented at this point by counsel?
Chris: At that point I was, but the guy wasn’t much.
Dave: Was he a public defender or did you retain him?
Chris: He was appointed by the court, court appointed attorney.
Dave: Somebody in private practice that was assigned to you. What kind
of interviews, advice does he give you at this point?
Chris: When he first saw me, I told him I am innocent, but I told him
what the cops did to me, and he said “No they couldn’t have
given you all these details.” I told him I’m innocent and
he suggests I plead guilty. He said “Even though you’re
innocent, this is a high publicity case.” He comes and sees me
and then he starts calling my mom and telling her I’m going to
die, she gets nervous and she gets sick. Her blood pressure shot up.
My grandma wasn’t supposed to tell me but I found out about it
and I can’t put my mom through this, I can’t, can’t
do that to my mom, even though I’m not doing it to her, she can’t
go through it. I didn’t see my attorney much after that.
Dave: So essentially when you went and saw the district attorney a couple
of months it was essentially to plead guilty?
Chris: To plead guilty I’d say essentially.
Dave: You’re totally aware as I understand it that the statement
that you’ve given up to this point is false, right. It’s
not like you’re deluded at this point that you believe you actually
did it.
Chris: No, I’m totally aware that I didn’t do anything,
it was a false statement. And I told my attorney and my family as much.
My family believed me. An uncle said this sergeant has a reputation
(garbled).
Dave: So basically you’re at the point where your mom’s
health is deteriorating as a result of this and you just decide to avoid
the death penalty you’ll plead guilty.
Chris: Yeah.
Dave: What was the end result that you pleaded to?
Chris: First degree murder.
Dave: What about the rape?
Chris: Rape, they said I had to testify against Richard, so basically
he was charged and convicted of rape.
Dave: So in your original statement then you told them that Richard
had done the rape?
Chris: They told me that that’s what they wanted.
Dave: And then you repeated that?
Chris: Yeah.
Dave: What happens with Richard?
Chris: He gets convicted.
Dave: Does he confess to this as well?
Chris: No he doesn’t. He pleaded innocent.
Dave: He says I didn’t have anything to do with it, your story
is false.
Chris: Yeah.
Dave: So he never confesses. Do you know anything about the interrogation
that he went through?
Chris: No.
Dave: So you’ve never seen him since, talked to him?
Chris: No, that’s something for the attorneys to deal with. I
forgot, I did see him in jail. He attacked me.
Dave: I suspect he was probably upset.
Chris: Yeah, I don’t blame the guy.
Dave: In terms of, other than physically getting in your face, yelling,
screaming, you said they never really presented evidence to you that
you were guilty. So at no point here are we talking about you not knowing
that you’re innocent. You knew all along that you were innocent,
so it’s not like all of a sudden you become convinced that “I
might have done it, I just don’t remember at this point.”
Chris: No.
Dave: How long between breaks, where they would let you have a cup of
coffee or a coke or something?
Chris: That first day there was no breaks at all. When I was interrogated
on Monday, there was no breaks. They would bring me a Coke, but there
was no break. They would come in and out, yeah.
Dave: So what were they doing while they were with you?
Chris: Yelling and screaming, and of course ___________ was more the
good cop saying we’re to help you with that, I’m here to
help you.
Dave: Do you have a sense of how he decided that you were the murder
and Richard was the rapist? How does that happen?
Chris: No, I don’t know what the DA said, if they wanted me to
take the murder. All I know is that the DA said that’s the only
way you’re gonna get out of the death penalty.
Dave: So it was essentially a trade for life vs. the death penalty at
that point. How does it come about that Morino gets involved and confesses?
Chris: That’s something for my attorneys. I had no idea til they
told me on the phone.
Dave: So you weren’t at that point…
Chris: I don’t know, basically I read in the paper already and
the DNA matched Morino (garbled)
Dave: So had you been involved in any type of appeal process?
Chris: No (garbled) Later on I found out there was (garbled)
Dave: So the attorney that was appointed for you basically did nothing
in terms of investigating whether or not you were innocent.
Chris: Yeah, basically he didn’t, I’m not saying that he
didn’t, but (garbled)
Dave: Had you provided them with an alibi.
Chris: I was asleep at the time. While I was sleeping, there was a phone
call, but I didn’t answer the phone. My roommate thought I was
probably seeping, but can’t prove it.
Dave: So the time of the murder and rape is supposed to occur approximately
when?
Chris: I don’t know, that’s more for my attorney.
Attorney; Some time between 8:30 and 9:30 a.m. October 24.
Dave: Now up to this point you’d had no contact with the police
at all?
Chris: No, you know tickets for underage drinking but never in custody.
Dave: So no juvenile problems, never had any real experience with anything
other than tickets essentially.
Chris: No, I was basically a good kid, a real good kid, I wanted to
make my parents proud, played baseball, sports, did everything that
an American boy is supposed to do, normal kid.
Dave: So you’re kind of essentially caught off guard with the
initial conversations, surprised?
Chris: Yeah, never had that kind of experience before. (garbled) I was
taught officers would never do you wrong, they’d protect and serve.
Dave: What about anything else that struck you about this that maybe
we hadn’t covered?
Chris: I think we’ve gone through most of it.
(New Tape, Chris attorney, John Pray)
Dave: Can I ask you a couple of quick questions here?
John: OK.
Dave: What’s your sense of what would solve these kinds of problems.
John: The first major thing that would solve it is to take videotaped
confessions. (garbled) Obviously they lead every detail of this, so
they wouldn’t have done that behavior, it would have been seen
for what it was and it would have been thrown out. So that’s the
easiest answer to that question is just to videotape. If not videotape,
even audiotape, but the problem with videotaping or audiotaping is that
they do it at the end after there’s been a period of three or
four hours or whatever time, so I think you need to videotape the entire
session. (garbled), but that’s after stopping and starting. That’s
the easiest way to solve this.
Dave: What does that do from, obviously I agree with what you just said.
I think that would solve all of this and protects the police too against
false claims. From a prosecutor’s standpoint, do you think it
would make it a more difficult case because now every subtle nuance
of an interrogator’s language, the pauses, the inflection of the
voice, becomes a note of contention.
John: I think it makes it a little bit harder for a prosecutor but then
the payoff is that then you don’t get this kind of cases. I don’t
know how many cases they would lose if they had to be videotaped, but
you would lose these false ones. And I don’t know, and I don’t
have any evidence or any reason to believe that would chill getting
guilty people to confess, I don’t know.
Dave: I happen to agree with you. I think that videotaping should be
done because I think it helps probably more than it hurts. Just so that
this type of stuff does not happen and it protects both sides. And it’s
cheaper, especially in a station house, I can see in the field where
you don’t always have your equipment, but when you’re at
the station house and they can get a hundred dollar videotape machine
and a one dollar tape, a lot of states are going to that.. Two have
so far, Minnesota and Alaska, and Texas. Texas has now changed where
you actually have to have the whole thing on tape plus Miranda.
John: Oh, I didn’t know that.
Dave: It’s fairly new.
John: A little late, huh?
Dave: Quite a bit late for you.
John: But I think the other thing that you can say
about Chris, the difference between Chris and Danziger, I really don’t
know what kind of interrogation Danziger got, but Danziger was more
of a street smart guy, he’d been in a little bit of trouble with
the law, kind of a cocky attitude. He stood up to that.
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